Is this a new idea and a good idea? Shipping used Saabs from UK

[Paul Collins]

As a UK resident and frequent visitor to Sweden, I am considering buying high quality used Saab cars in the UK and driving them home to Sweden. What do forum members think of this idea? There is a very large stock of Saab cars in the UK and many parts can easily be used on left hand drive cars in Sweden.

A Swedish man once had the idea to export simple Swedish wooden furniture to the UK, I wonder what happened to him (Ingvar Kamprad).

Is anyone interested in working with me on this business venture?

PaulCollins@2Prosper.co.uk

[bollman]

So, I don't know if you are fluent in Swedish or used a translator to write that post. I'll be sorta rude and reply in English anyways, either offending your language skills, or saving you some time

Before Brexit, there were quite a few cars imported to Sweden, mostly ragtops. Swedes don't really like driving cars with the wheel on the "wrong side" so those cars tend to be very cheap if they come up for sale now.
Of course there's money to be made from parts (Kamprad is probably safe though), but I'm not really sure how you are going to get away with this, legally. Importing a UK car to Sweden (or any EU country for that matter) is about as expensive as importing from the US, and paying that kind of money for a RHD car is not going to happen. Importing for parts, well, there's still fees to pay (if done legally) although not as much. If not going down that path, how are you going to "get rid" of the car in the UK? Don't you need some sort of paper from a scrapper that the car was scrapped in Sweden? I mean, sure, you could crash the car in Sweden on a holiday and you wouldn't have to bring the wreck home to UK, but I would assume DVLA would want some kind of proof it was scrapped to deregister the car?

You could break up the cars in UK and bring the parts over, that would just be "normal" smuggling, but I'm not sure there's enough money to be made to take the risk.

[Paul Collins]

Many thanks for taking the time to reply.
I wasn’t really suggesting driving right hand drive cars in Sweden, the idea is about driving UK cars to Sweden for their parts. From what I have seen of Saabs for sale in SE they generally have high KMs, that is not true in the UK. There are many very low KMs Saabs in the UK and the engine, transmissions and many other parts will fit Swedish Saabs perfectly.
I don’t need to “get away with” anything, as there are no restrictions to exporting UK cars to Sweden, no import duties, taxes, fees or charges, just your fuel and other traveling costs.
I don’t understand why you say that importing from other EU countries is as expensive as importing from the USA, this makes no sense. SE is in the EU and the EU remains primarily a customs union meaning the Single Market allows imports and exports “tariff free” within the EU.
There is absolutely no problem with “getting rid” of the car in the UK, just tick the box for a permanent export, no restrictions whatsoever, why would there be? https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk

I have no idea why you think that selling used car parts from UK to SE is smuggling as it is entirely legal and I know 2 companies doing it now and selling to forum members but the shipping costs eat up 75% of the profit. The transport costs on a whole car are tiny per car part.
Perhaps I just need to take a few days in Stockholm and Gothenburg and see if I can find any established vehicle dismantling companies and then drive the UK cars to them and sell. I will take care of all the buying, transport and paperwork. However I remain of the view that there is an opportunity for the people with the right combination of skills e.g. dismantling vehicles, taking photos of parts and listing them on a suitable website or auctions site. I know people doing this in the UK and they are extremely wealthy very quickly. One Polish family are now almost royalty with the money they have made sending car parts back to Poland. I have been buying rear LED lights from EBay UK and sending to Gothenburg for friends there for many years. They go to their local garage to get the parts fitted and the garage staff are extremely curious as to where the spare parts came from.

[Mr.O]

Many thanks for taking the time to reply.
I wasn’t really suggesting driving right hand drive cars in Sweden, the idea is about driving UK cars to Sweden for their parts. From what I have seen of Saabs for sale in SE they generally have high KMs, that is not true in the UK. There are many very low KMs Saabs in the UK and the engine, transmissions and many other parts will fit Swedish Saabs perfectly.

A good point.

I don’t need to “get away with” anything, as there are no restrictions to exporting UK cars to Sweden, no import duties, taxes, fees or charges, just your fuel and other traveling costs.

I suggest you get in touch with the Swedish customs again. Importing a car from the UK involves paying a customs fee of 10% plus VAT 25%. You pay all the fees to the Customs Office.

I don’t understand why you say that importing from other EU countries is as expensive as importing from the USA, this makes no sense. SE is in the EU and the EU remains primarily a customs union meaning the Single Market allows imports and exports “tariff free” within the EU.

Actually, bollman didn´t. The UK is outside the EU as is the US.

I have no idea why you think that selling used car parts from UK to SE is smuggling as it is entirely legal

Importing without paying customs fees and VAT is smuggling.

and I know 2 companies doing it

Many companies does it. They do it the legal way.

Perhaps I just need to take a few days in Stockholm and Gothenburg and see if I can find any established vehicle dismantling companies and then drive the UK cars to them and sell. I will take care of all the buying, transport and paperwork.

That´s probably a good idea.

However I remain of the view that there is an opportunity for the people with the right combination of skills e.g. dismantling vehicles, taking photos of parts and listing them on a suitable website or auctions site. I know people doing this in the UK and they are extremely wealthy very quickly. One Polish family are now almost royalty with the money they have made sending car parts back to Poland.

I sounds like a good opportunity especially since the Saab market in Sweden has a constant demand for high quality spare parts.

I have been buying rear LED lights from EBay UK and sending to Gothenburg for friends there for many years. They go to their local garage to get the parts fitted and the garage staff are extremely curious as to where the spare parts came from.

Funny I have never ecountered a garage or mechanic in Sweden who didn´t know where and how to get spare parts to a Saab.

[turbo4ever]

Mr Collins,

You are suggesting breaking a drivable RHD SAAB for the sake of increasing your personal wealth? As you have noticed this does not go down too well here. Legal reasons aside, please don't scrap a fully functional and approved (=valid MoT) SAAB, albeit RHD! Just don't do it! Your knowledge gaps are significant and costly failure is around the corner.

[bollman]

Well, turbo4ever, cars in the UK tend to be scrapped a lot earlier than in Sweden. The reason, as I recall, is that insurance goes way up when the car gets older. Also, since there is no market for RHD cars in mainland EU, they tend to hold little or no value outside UK. And, since Brexit, export is not really feasible as the car then gets about as expensive as an LHD car already in EU.
I can clearly see the market for low mileage parts from the UK, but since Brexit, this is not nearly as profitable as it was before, if at all.

[jellybear]

If the business concept is to sell used parts from low-milage UK Saabs to customers in Sweden why spend the time, effort and cost getting the car to Sweden before taking the parts out? Isn't the business case better if you strip the car in the UK just ship the parts from there?

[FinnTurbo]

Better spares than just junked. Spares are always needed.

[Paul Collins]

- Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to comment.
- There are Pros and Cons to consider
- As far as I can tell there are almost zero fees, VAT, taxes etc involved here. If I rent an apartment in Sweden and register my UK car in Sweden with an SE plate there is a very modest fee, then I can sell the car without any taxes. Actually I do not need to rent an apartment, I only said that for illustrative purposes.
- Bollman - Sorry I misinterpreted the part of your email about importing from other non EU countries, my bad.
- As for numerous Gothenburg garages being amazed at a Swede turning up with spare parts that is correct. They asked my friend (Glenn form Gothenburg!!!) where did he get those parts from and he said from a very good friend in Olde England and they said well you cannot get them in Sweden - fact - I swear on it, that is what was said on the most recent occasion and it mirrors similar comments on previous occasions. Furthermore the comment to the effect that all garages in Sweden know where to get Saab parts, well strange that I have a personal message asking how much I want for the front wings off my Saab 93! If parts were so plentiful to the trade why are they not reaching the retail customers?
- As for Turbo4ever I do appreciate the passion to protect Saab and furthermore I respect it. A bit like those drunk Englishmen who support a football team, I respect their right to be passionate about English football, I am not passionate or interested in anyway in football, but some people are and I let them be.
- Full transparency I did smile at Turbo4ever's comments that I must not butcher a fit Saab. But I laughed out loud when he later personal messaged me and asked me how much I wanted for the front wings!
- As for UK insurance going up with the age of the car, that is completely incorrect. The age of the car is not a factor in calculating insurance premiums, it does not affect the likelihood of killing a family of people when you fall asleep on the motorway. I know from my time at law school that Sweden is one of the few countries that uses a non fault insurance system i.e. you get paid out even if the other person did nothing wrong. I could see the practical effect of this in the way that Glenn would walk in front of cars in downtown Gothernburg. I had to grab him and pull him out of the streets in London as there they would hit him and possibly not even stop. If you are stupid in Olde England you really suffer. But we have plenty of stupid Englishmen so we are OK. Sweden by contrast, in my experience is full of highly educated people who speak multiple languages beautifully, which is why if I ever retire I will try and retire to Sweden or Norway.
- Brexit, well what can I say, I did not vote for it. However having seen how badly the EU behaved I fully support it and if the vote came again I would vote to leave. When I was at law school I was struck at how many times the UK had been taken to the ECJ and lost. Basically the UK Government like most Governments is not good. However the EU Government is no better and just added another lawyer of Governments and did not do what it said it would do on the tin. We are best off out of that dysfunctional corrupt club. Will our Government do any better, no of course not, they are terrible.
- I remain of the view that there is a very significant opportunity here. I intend to buy Saabs, one at a time and drive them to Sweden and sell. Perhaps one day this forum will be involved in some way.

Sorry for all the gramatical and spelling mistakes in my own language, I really should stop mixing my drinks at lunchtime.


P.

[bollman]

I think you are mixing facts here.
Yes, you can bring 1 or maybe 2 cars without taxes or fees if you move permanently to Sweden. That's not something you can easilly do more than once (maybe every 5 years or so).
And, car insurance on older SAABs are quite expensive in the UK. A 9-5 Aero from 2002-2008 comes in all the way up in Group 43 (out of 50!).
That's the same insurance group as BMW M3!
Ng9-3 is cheaper, they are in the high 20s to high 30s since they are newer and probably more expensive to buy.
Compare that to UKs best selling car: the VW T-Roc. They start in insurance group 10(!) and goes up to 20.
I guess you know, but UK car insurance is based on these groups that cars are classified in. And, as the car ages, it goes upwards in groups since they are considered more expensive to repair, have less safety features and generally tend to be involved in more accidents as younger drivers can afford them. SAABs have also gotten moved upwards since the bankruptcy due to expensive or impossible repairs.

[Mr.O]

@Paul Collins Well actually any garage or mechanic in Sweden do know where and how to get spare parts to a Saab. But you are right, of course, if the a part is out of stock at the suppliers they can´t get it. And that is not uncommon since Saabs are getting old and Saab Automobile has been out of business a long time now. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this will be more and more common. Filling that demand with high quality used spare parts is a very good idea indeed.

I don't fully understand if you plan to sell UK cars or sell UK car parts in Sweden. If you plan to sell cars I understand why you want to drive the cars to Sweden. But the market demand for used RHD cars in Sweden is almost zero.

If the plan is to scrap the car and sell car parts to Sweden I don't see any obvious reason move the car at all. It is probably much easier to send a few parts than a car...

Anyone importing a car from UK to Sweden have to pay customs fee and VAT.

An exception is if you fulfil the requirements to bring a car as "flyttgods" you can avoid the fees. If I remember those requirements correct one is that you must have owned and used the car for at least one year prior to the import to qualify. To be 100% sure the easiest is to call the Swedish customs and ask them. They have always been very helpful when I have contacted them.

[Paul Collins]

Mixing facts after mixing drinks is an occupational hazard I am afraid.

I accept that the personal import route is a low volume under the radar method but it might suit me for the purposes of testing the idea.

OK am I the only one mixing facts? The comment that I responded to was that insurance in the UK goes up with the age of the car and that is not true. Maybe there are some specific examples with discontinued manufacturers of what are now vintage or classic cars, I do not know and don’t doubt what you say. But the blanket comment that insurance goes up with age in the UK is not correct. I have a car collection and my oldest car is a Peugeot 205 from 1991 and its insurance has not gone up, nor has it for my 1991 BMW 318i. However insurance calculations include many variables and I am a lot older than I was in 1991 when I was driving my 205 around on a daily basis.

https://tinyurl.com/ywuwfpv5

I am glad to see that some forum members see some merit in my crazy idea.

The main idea is to buy UK Saabs and drive them to Sweden and then have an operation there breaking them and selling the parts. That operation could be an existing dismantling business i.e. I just arrive at their gate and sell them my car. Or that operation could be a new part time business set up my a forum member who has the right skills and access to some land where they can store and dismantle the cars and advertise the parts online.

Yes I understand that the appetite for RHD cars is close to zero, but perhaps not once the penny has dropped and the owner realises that they are sitting on an appreciating stock of spare parts. Again the Saab sitting outside my door has done 44000 miles and I don’t see many Saabs in SE with that sort of low usage.

The reason to move the car is mainly financial and also practical. I know businesses in the UK breaking Saabs and selling the parts all over the world and to many forum members, they spend a great deal of money on shipping and because many Swedes hate the Brits after Brexit the establishment in Sweden just loves to screw around with UK companies exporting to SE. For example before Brexit I could send items via snail mail to my girlfriend in Gothenburg and she would receive the items within a few days. Last year I sent her a record player with a USB connection via Fedex. After a month it had not been delivered, then they tried to deliver it when she was away, then I spoke to the depot who had it and said that she was home again but I was told in very arrogant language that the item would be returned to me, which it was weeks later. Therefore I just got on the last flight out of Stansted and spent a few hours over night in SE and caught the first flight out of Landvetter. That taught me something, when the authorities see a face in front of them it is more difficult to behave badly. In fact I was questioned for 10 minutes by a beautiful young lady at passport control and then later a guy X-ray’d the freight that I was carrying. Everything worked smoothly, everyone did their job and they were all very polite.

From what I can see the costs of moving the car and then dividing that cost by the number of parts that are sold equate to a fraction of the cost and delay of sending individual parts and then trying to argue with a politically motivated delivery company or customs official who just wants to kick the Brits. Believe me there are plenty of Brits that I would like to kick, so I can understand their feelings.

I suspect that the fees and VAT might be subject to some form of exception considering that the cars were made in Sweden and sold to the UK when the UK was part of the EU and there is an agreement now which avoids punitive tariffs. But if I am wrong about that I may be able to setup a company (either in UK or SE) pay all the VAT and reclaim it quite legitimately, but the personal import exception should allow me to test the concept.

Time will tell.

P.

[jellybear]

I think you're misunderstanding the "flyttgods" regulations for import of personal belongings in conjunction with your permanent move to Sweden.

That is a one-time tax exemption for people permanently changing their residence to Sweden (=immigrate to Sweden) - the idea is that you can bring your existing furniture, household equipment and other personal belonings including your existing car to your new residence in Sweden without getting hit by import taxes.

Such a tax exemption is approved only if you demonstrate your intention of being a legal resident in Sweden for at least 12 months - so you will first need to get a residence permit. Then you will have to pay your taxes here and you will no longer be eligible for British social security sevices but instead you'll see a Swedish doctor when you need one.

Sure, the "flyttgods" rules give some wiggle room to flip a car or two without paying taxes if you ever choose to migrate to Sweden, but migrating to Sweden just for the sake of flipping a used car is not worth it...

All other types of "personal import" (other than in conjunction to an actual migration) from outside of the European Union is subject to VAT and tolls.

[Mr.O]

I accept that the personal import route is a low volume under the radar method but it might suit me for the purposes of testing the idea.

Personal import is no problem at all as long as you follow the rules. People are importing cars all the time.

If I understand "under the radar " right it suggests criminal activities. To me it sounds like a bad idea to start a profitable business by breaking the law when testing the concept.

The main idea is to buy UK Saabs and drive them to Sweden and then have an operation there breaking them and selling the parts. That operation could be an existing dismantling business i.e. I just arrive at their gate and sell them my car.

That´s probably the most convenient way. However I seriously doubt if there is any profit in it. But that´s my personal opinion, I may be wrong. It´s not that difficult to find out. As a test just contact a few (or many) businesses and offer to sell them a UK car. It is not that difficult to find used car parts companies on the internet.

Or that operation could be a new part time business set up my a forum member who has the right skills and access to some land where they can store and dismantle the cars and advertise the parts online.

Sure, if you do all the work entirely by yourself there is more profit, but also more work.

The reason to move the car is mainly financial and also practical.

From what I can see the costs of moving the car and then dividing that cost by the number of parts that are sold equate to a fraction of the cost and delay of sending individual parts

Well of course that depends on the number parts sold.

I suspect that the fees and VAT might be subject to some form of exception considering that the cars were made in Sweden and sold to the UK when the UK was part of the EU and there is an agreement now which avoids punitive tariffs. But if I am wrong about that

Actually I believe you are wrong here. There is nothing special about the UK. Import is treated as for any foreign country outside the EU. Isn't that the what brexit was all about?

I may be able to setup a company (either in UK or SE) pay all the VAT and reclaim it quite legitimately, but the personal import exception should allow me to test the concept.

You can't use the "flyttgods" exception if you haven't owned and used the car more than a year before you move, i.e. immigrate from UK to Sweden. It is a quite complicated process involving many requirements. Not something you just do to test a concept.

It is probably easier and better to set up the company from the beginning and do the concept testing more realistic.

[FinnTurbo]

I think it might be easier to break the cars up in the UK and ship the parts by truck to Sweden. I think setting up an online operation in the UK shipping parts to not just Sweden but the EU in general might be a better idea than focusing on the swedish market alone. Old saabs are as common in Finland as in Sweden for instance. 900s in particular as they were also built here.

[Paul Collins]

OK, perhaps I have misunderstood the “flyttgods” regs.

It seems that there are various provisions for personal imports.

Perhaps I should forget the personal imports options and set up a new company in Sweden the company could pay the VAT on importing the cars and charge VAT on the parts for sale, reclaim VAT in months that the company makes a loss and pay the net positive VAT to the Swedish Government in months that it makes a profit.
Sorry for my unclear phraseology, no I am not a criminal and I do not intend to undertake any criminal activities. I meant under the radar meaning not a big new commercial operation supported by advertising and a product launch. I meant using personal import rules legally to test the market. If I was a criminal I would be a pretty stupid one to advertise my intentions on a forum where I do not have control over the server, or whatever data backup strategies are in place, let alone all those Swedish tax payers taking screen prints of my words!

Perhaps once the bulk of the most valuable parts from each car had been sold the remaining parts could be offered for free to forum members and whatever was left after that process would be crushed and recycled to become a Volvo!

You may be right that there is nothing special about the UK ! However my understanding of the best forgotten Brexit years is that a lot of the arguing was about reaching an EU-UK zero-tariff trade agreement which I had understood had been reached. If that is so perhaps the special thing about the UK compared to say the USA or China is that there is a valid zero-tariff trade agreement. So I don’t think that there will be any customs duty to pay and there is a lot of caselaw about countries trying to charge customs “administration” fees. The French tried that for many years and finally lost in the ECJ. However there probably will be VAT to pay, which the Swedish Government will happily refund to an appropriately registered company.

I believe that some feeble British politicians argued that the UK should stay in the Single Market even though it had left the EU, but that was never going to happen and frankly just annoyed people. Had the UK left the EU but stayed in the Single Market there might be no VAT to pay on goods going from the UK to Sweden and vice versa e.g. those little green cakes called dammsugare (Punsch Roll) that I import by the truck load!

I am not yet ready to emigrate to Sweden, but it could happen one day in the future! Maybe if I was a criminal I would get free accommodation!

[jellybear]

I believe that some feeble British politicians argued that the UK should stay in the Single Market even though it had left the EU, but that was never going to happen and frankly just annoyed people. Had the UK left the EU but stayed in the Single Market there might be no VAT to pay on goods going from the UK to Sweden and vice versa e.g. those little green cakes called dammsugare (Punsch Roll) that I import by the truck load!

Now we're getting into politics. What's the general feeling in the UK since Brexit, what benefits of exiting the EU have been demonstrated?

[Paul Collins]

The general feeling in the UK about Brexit ??? Well if you ask 3 people you will get 5 opinions. I suspect most would agree that the UK politicians at the time were totally negligent. When I was at law school I entered a national negotiation competition. The fist thing that I learnt is that each side usually brings an agenda and seeks to thrust their agenda onto the conduct of the meeting. The clever thing to do is to avoid an argument over the agenda and simply agree that nothing is agreed until all issues are agreed, which seems an entirely fair approach. The EU is a very week position told the EU that the UK could not even discuss any of the things that they would like to discuss until the EU hand discussed, resolved and signed a legally binding agreement on all the things that it wanted. Under EU law that approach was unlawful and a first year law student would never have agreed to it. However our stupid Prime Minister went behind her negotiating team and agreed to such an approach in the belief that the EU negotiators are lovely people and they would be nice to the UK later in the negotiation. Who in their right mind would have adopted such a naive approach? S the UK clutch defeat out of the jaws of victory. I never voted for Brexit, never really believed in it, but if I had a chance to vote again I would vote for it, even for the poor value deal that we achieved. The EU is utterly corrupt, does not do what it says on the tin and the next time the Greece defaults on its loans from German banks at least we will not be asked to bail them out. The difference now is that Germany is not in the strong position that it used to be so I am even more glad that we are out of the EU.

But no one ever talks about Brexit here, our Government has messed up many more issues since then. The Covid lockdown was a disaster, SE was the only country that took the right approach and the medic at the centre of it appeared to be greatly under appreciated from what I could see. I had 3 injections and then I learnt of the massive problems with them. In every country that rolled out those injections more people have died after those injections than dies from the virus! Yes completely true and the UK and SE statistics tell that story. The UK has changed the way that is accounts for excess deaths ! If anyone is interested in this very serious story I suggest that they search for Dr John Campbell on Youtube. He is NOT a medical doctor he is a nurse with an academic PhD but he interviews the best doctors in the world.

Best that we don't start discussing Ukraine as that will result in my immediate expulsion from this forum, guaranteed. All I will say is that there are a few people on Scandanavia who are not robots of the CIA e.g. the Norwegian Professor Glenn Diesen.

Regards,

Paul.

[bollman]

I would like to point out the fact that no study have found "massive problems" with the COVID vaccines:
https://www.sciencealert.com/largest...risks-you-face

[FinnTurbo]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the UK (and Sweden) never had to contribute to the greek-german debt crisis sine they where not members of the euro. The UK even had a specific exception saying they would never have to join the euro.